Phillip Crouch – In conversation with Jane Burns

[I found this interview in my father’s files and thought it appropriate to share at this time.]

Date of Interview 1990

Mr. Crouch was a dedicated and well-respected lawyer in Welland. He passed in 2010 after working 43 years at the Flett Beccario Law Office.

Sidor Crouch (Born in Russia 14 May 1895-26 June 1980).My father was one of the founders of the Deere Street Hall.

When the Ukrainian immigrants came to Welland, they were fragmented. As in all groups, some were religious some were not…In the case of the Ukrainians, they divided into four parts, as far as I can remember. There were the Greek Orthodox believers…the Greek Catholic believers…there were those who sympathized with Communist regime and the Soviet Union and they ended up with the Ukrainian Labour Temple, together with many others who were basically interested only in the educational and cultural life in the Labour Temple…and then there was another group that didn’t fit into any one of these other categories. They ended up in the Deere Street Hall. My father was one of those.

It was organized about 1920..They were non-believers. They had gone through a period where the Church had not been particularly an attractive influence. It had sided with the feudal aspects in Russia. So they preferred not to be associated with the Church. And also they weren’t comfortable with the sympathizers with the Communist regime. Some were Socialists-social democrats-a very few might have been anarchists-and some were people who weren’t any religious or political philosophy-“Well the Deere Street Hall doesn’t take a strong stand on any of those, let’s go there.”

While you’re in an ethnic group, you want to belong to some group; you want to belong to some group where you can go and dance and see drama. I suspect most of the members were in that last category, without strong religious or political beliefs.

JB: Was your father an anarchist?

PC: I use to be puzzled as a young boy, listening to my father argue. I think my father just liked to ague. My father read a great deal even though he’d had a limited education. He read Peter Kropotkin books a form of anarchy with no violence. My father, when he flirted with anarchism flirted with the non-violent aspect of Peter Kropotkin. I remember we had that book in Russian in our home. It was amazing to me that my father, who was a working man with three years of education, should be reading these philosophical books. My father wasn’t sure what he wanted to be. He finally found his niche when the CCF was founded. I think he thought about anarchism; I don’t think that was a serious part of his life.

Father was born in Ukraine, born in the Eastern Ukraine. 99% or more of the Ukrainians who came to Canada came from the Western Ukraine. That influenced him; made him different from other Ukrainians in Canada. The other ones were Greek Catholics and much more nationalistic. Ones from Eastern Ukraine spoke Russian as well as Ukrainian. Those who came from Western Ukraine were recruited, helped with some financial assistance. My father came from the Tzarist Iron Curtain. My father came as a 17 year old…smuggled himself across the border, in the dead of night, along with several other young men. They came without permission of the Russian government and without financial assistance.

He left Russia because he worked as a lackey for a feudal landowner. And one day, my father was polishing boots for this man-and the man was unhappy with the way my father had polished his boots, and so he threw the boots at my father-told him what a poor job he had done. My father went home to see his father and said he’d had enough. That he understood there was a better country-that was Canada-he knew one person in Welland, Ontario. He asked his grandfather for money and made his way across Europe, country after country, without being able to speak the language. Finally found himself in Hamburg, Germany and took a ship to Montreal. The immigration agent asked him what his name was, he said Krawitz-which means tailor, one of the most common names in the Ukraine. The English immigration agent didn’t know how to write Krawitz, so he put Crouch down. Many immigrants had their names changed.

He had one friend in Welland. He worked and then joined the Canadian army. He served at and was wounded at Vimy Ridge. We were always proud of that. After war, he came back to Welland and helped found the Deere St. Hall.

The hall didn’t really have a specific aim. It’s purpose was not clear And without a purpose, it didn’t continue. Eventually, the members found their way to the three other organizations.

The hall had a band, drama, concerts, masquerade parties. A particularly welcoming place. People could feel at home with each other and enjoy themselves. I was taken to the hall with my parents. There were no babysitters. The immigrants who came wanted their children to retain the Ukrainian language but it was a losing battle. The children would be assimilated.

In my family, it was difficult to retain the language because my mother immigrated when she was eight, father came at 17. Easy for them to switch to English. Mother was of Ukrainian background. She had emigrated in 1913 to the U.S. with her mother. There was a shortage of women in the U.S, and Canada for immigrant men. It was not unusual to invite women over. Mother’s mother-a widow-had been invited over. She went to Pennsylvania. Mother had a Greek Orthodox background. My parents met at a wedding in U.S. and wrote letters but they never dated-he proposed by mail 69 years ago.

Mother came to Welland then which was a great culture shock, plus she had to learn to cook and be a housewife. An older woman helped her out. My mother remembers her kindly.

JB: Did she go to the UK. Halls?

PC: She liked the social part. But soon, they started having children. And there was a lot of work around the house-where she still lives. Mother had too much work to do to go to the hall. The men would go there for meetings.

Eventually the hall was sold and became a church for a very short time. I was amazed when I went back once at how small it actually was. As a child it seemed a sizable hall. I don’t know what’s there now on the north east side of Deere St. It stopped operating by the late 30s’. I think there was a polarization. Some ended up at the two churches, others at the Labor Temple and some went nowhere. In our case, we didn’t go anywhere. We weren’t comfortable in any of the other places. But at times we ended up at all three of the other places, for social events. But we were not members. That accentuated our assimilation.

My father was an atheist. He never wavered. At that time, religious differences seemed very important. Those who were firm believers were not very friendly with those who were atheists. As the years went by, they forgot their differences.

Politics is important to [ post-war immigrants], politics in the sense of nationalism, of an independent Ukraine. That was their most important political belief. There wasn’t an active interest in Canadian politics. They were looking back to Ukraine. Among those who came in 1913, there was a great longing for an independent Ukraine, for a long time.

JB: Where did your father work?

PC: Page Hersey, Inco, Welland Electric Steel Foundry, he was an assistant melter. He became the melter and was the second man in Canada to make stainless steel. And that’s quite an achievement. He worked there the rest of his life. He was also a self-taught electrician.

The other immigrants looked up to my father as a very intelligent person, “book person”-he read newspapers. He became the president of the Crowland Tenants and Ratepayers Association. He organized concerts, after the Deere St. Hall had ceased.

Father believed all nationalities were important, not just Ukrainians. All of his children married non-Ukrainians, which was not typical. None of us married within the Ukrainian community. That was highly unusual.

JB: The RCMP, did they watch your father?

PC: If they did, I really wasn’t aware of it. There were all kinds of rumours at that time, that the RCMP was watching people who weren’t the conventional people but there’s no way I would know.

Asked my mother if she knew of any anarchists-mother said she would be hard put to think of anyone who was an anarchist. They had speakers who would come to the Hall. Who came and spoke on anarchism. Well. I suppose once you‘ve had a speaker-at that time-that was enough to set off the RCMP, the name of the organization would be blackened. I knew many of the people there. I think they belonged to the hall because it was a social place to be. I don’t really think that they ever really read an anarchist book in their lives. I think an anarchist was a very rare people indeed.

There was no military in the Deere St. Hall. They would bring in speakers. There was more an attempt at an intellectual approach to these things. You didn’t find union organizers there. You found that at the Ukrainian Labour Temple. The labour leaders from the Welland area emerged from the Ukrainian Labour Temple, not from the Deere St. Hall. Although the name “labour” appears there [in title of hall]-they weren’t militants.

My views on discrimination. I remember as a child the discrimination, acts of discrimination felt by the Ukrainian community and by all ethnic groups. It was difficult for n ethnic to get a job as a foreman or a supervisor or a teacher. I was very conscious of that. As years have gone by, what I’ve realized,-and I was a little bitter about that at one time-but as years have gone by, I’ve put it in perspective. And it’s this. Whatever country there is, there will be discrimination. It’s a natural course of action. Had the English immigrated to the Ukraine, they would have been as discriminated against as the Ukrainians were when they came to Canada. It’s a natural thing, and in a short period of time-how can I possible complain about discrimination when in a very short period of time, ..I have had this upward mobility in this country. Where else could you go, with a mother and father hardly educated when they came-and there their children prosper and we have prospered? My initial bitterness has changed to an appreciation of the country. Best jobs wen to English speaking. Only the poorest jobs went to the ethnics. We were called Hunkies, but it happens in every country.  Now we’re a country where we still have decimation of course, but it’s a country where you can come as an immigrant and still achieve considerable status and prosperity, perhaps much better than any other country. I’ve always been grateful that my mother and father decided to come to Canada. They had a hard time but it’s a wonderful thing for their children that they decided to come to Canada.

Father had a great belief in education, he believed I would go to university, not work in a factory. None of us [siblings] went to work in a factory. And that was unusual in the Canadian/Ukrainian community. Father was an intellectual in a working class environment.

We don’t celebrate Ukrainian holidays. We became assimilated more readily. I can read and write Ukrainian and Russian, to translate letters when they come from the Old Country-I have twenty first cousins there-but we don’t go to the Ukrainian Church, or any other church. Sometimes go to the one near my mother, All People’s Church. My brother is active there. My children can hardly speak a word of Ukrainian.

My father died 10 years ago. He was 85 then. We were very proud of his accomplishments. On his tombstone it says “A good husband, father, grandfather and citizen.” He was extremely well regarded in the community. Initially, it was not so because there were those divisions in the community. But as the years progressed as people decided the political and religious differences were not that important, and as my father became active in the community-concerts and ratepayers association-he achieved quite a status.